Well, I don't think we ever stop noticing cute members of the other sex, no matter what stage of a relationship with someone else. The only difference is that if you're in a relationship where you value the other person enough, you're gonna look at cute members of the other sex as a matter of fact deal, not as a source of desire.

I tell my husband about the occasional cute guy I see or meet, as in "so and so is pretty cute", and I can otherwise tell when we're out and his eyes wander around, no matter how much he denies it. But I know that if it was more than an attraction to the form of the object observed, we would tell the other person so, and try to figure out what's really going on.

Any relationship is, as you pointed out, builds on communication: it is not enough for a couple to grow together as a couple and as separate entities. You have to keep the lines of communication open, so that even when you grow apart you can understand why, and that sometimes growing apart is not a bad thing: it keeps that sense of wonder, that sense of newness in the relationship alive.

in principle i understand the rationale behind "open marriages" or open relationships. but in practice, i don't get it at all. and it's funny to me that this concept of open marriage always comes up under the context of burgeoning relationships wherein somehow the initial excitement and passion wanes. again, it all makes sense to me logically, the rationale is clear. but in my heart, in practice, not only do i think i couldn't do it, i don't think i'd want to do it.

to me, it's clear that every committed relationship will go through periods of excitement and stasis. but to me, that's the whole point-- *that* is precisely the reason to have the relationship to begin with-- that is where the richness is. of course i'm attracted to other people, of course it's natural to fantasize. some might argue it's even natural to not be monogamous. fine. i get those arguments. but there's still something in my heart that tells me that the passion and excitement of having sex with someone who i don't share that intense bond with is just entertainment. the argument goes, "if we have a committed relationship and we both agree that it is just entertainment, what's the harm?"

i don't know. maybe nothing.
but i still struggle in my heart with this.

Brilliant, honest, and true.

Socrates would be proud.

"but i still struggle in my heart with this."

Spiral-

Take heart, my fellow human. As homo-sapiens we seem to be caught in an unfair pickle, don't you think? We have competing drives to be both monogamous and to spread the genetic word, if you will. So, I hope that your internal struggle is not too confounding. You're simply a thinking entity contemplating the complexities of human nature. And since you yourself are human, I guess you've also got to deal with those complexities personally.

Jane, your great, but you are replaceable. Everyone is replaceable because no one person can ever fulfill all the needs of another person. That's why relationships and commitment are all about sacrifices.

When people have sex with someone besides their spouse/partner they are allowing for the opportunity for that person to be replaced entirely. That's why it's not okay to sleep around. When you make a relationship committment to someone, you are then responsible for not putting yourself in a situation where you may develope the desire to leave them.

For example, I used to frequently go out with my co-workers after work. Most of them are single and they would meet guys while the married ones would sit around and talk, but then the dynamic shifted, and all but two of us were single and one night when I didn't go out with them, the other married girl cheated on her husband. Now, I feel like I shouldn't go out with them at all, because the temptation is there and because I am married, I will not even submit myself to the temptation of meeting someone else who I may fall in love with because my committment is to stay with my husband.

When you are not married but are committed, your obligation is to be with only that person until things are not working between the two of you without outside people involved. In an open relationship, you will ultimately meet someone that at least seems better than your partner, but he probably won't be after your get to know him. What's the point? Sure, it's fun and exciting to be with someone new, and single people should do whatever they won't, but what value do the affairs really have? Certainly not as much as a strong life-long partnership and relationsihp, which can be jeopardized by an open relationship. Why take that risk?

Also, my sexuality is my gift to my husband. It's the one part of myself that I reserve to only share with him. I think that gift is cheapened when it's shared with many. If someone you loved gave you a lovely diamond, you wouldn't appreciate it as much if you found out that he'd not only given the same thing to ever other girl he'd ever dated, but also to some strangers and aqquantinces. It's no longer special. I want my sexuality to be special and appreciated. I want to give it to my husband. I'm not advocating virginity here, if your single, go for it, but in a relationship, I believe in manogomy.

I will never cheat on a woman. Contrary to my nickname here, I've always been a one woman man. I had a wise best friend in high school who told me very simply "You know what? Never settle." He mentioned it to me several times on a number of occasions. That's the fundamental problem with many people. They settle for far less than they should, with respect to a number of things in life. That 30 something desperate to be married according to the schedule of her biological clock, settles for whomever she can walk down the isle before she hits 34. That college graduate settles for whatever job is on his plate within a week of graduating. Countless people settle for shitty, crashy computers because they're "good enough" and "cheap". What do these people all have in common? They're all miserable. That 30 something woman gets divorced or ends up taking daily therapy for her lackluster life by watching Oprah. That college graduate rots away in a cubicle longing for the good old days. And those computer users get viruses and lose all their work :-)

Well you know what? I don't settle, thanks to that friend. And it's him I can thank for taking the road less travelled, but the road that has given me such satisfaction. I've only dated women I am strongly attracted to. I've only struck up a relationship with those girls I've dated whom I wasn't awestruck with after those first few dates. And I've never slept with a woman I wasn't - and I can say this with a straight-face - in love with.

Cheating is merely a reaction to the realization that you've settled for someone who's "below" your potential. Have I been cheated on? Sure. It hurt like hell. My first serious girlfriend, a first in just about every important way, cheated on me. I was devastated and it took me a long time to recover. So I don't cheat. Partially because I can empathize with the victims of cheaters. And partially because to start a relationship with a cheater would be to start a relationship with someone who has a record of settling. It wouldn't be a question of if they would ever be unhappy in our relationship, but when. And I'm not planning on dying anytime soon.

The one thing all cheaters have in common is they emotionally departed their relationships before they physically did. That's why they never feel guilty. But that's the type of thing they do. They'll settle for a superficial relationship by staying with their partner rather than working things out or breaking up, because it's easier to settle than to confront the situation and deal with it at that time.

What I find peculiar is I've never seen a woman settle for a pair of shoes she thought were ugly. No; the most absolutely perfect shoes are always chosen and will be cherished forever. Which is why my oh-so-smart sister tells me to size up a woman based on the shoes she wears :-) But that's an entirely different discussion.

So that's my PSA for the night. You'll only be truly happy if you are true to yourself and don't settle.

Hey Other Guy,

you and I should just set up a message board so that we can discuss amoungst ourselves, but I always want to reply to what you say.

Firstly, although I agree with you on managomy, I think I should point out that jane is talking about having an open relationship, which is different than cheating. Cheating is a betryal and a lie, which I think pretty much everyone agrees is wrong, versus an open relationship, where everything is out in the open and more morally ambiguous.

Also, a note on settling. I think that sometimes we need to be more open minded about what we expect in a partner. I know women who have a checklist of what they want in a man and call anything else "settling." While it's important to have standards for relationships, I think that sometimes we can miss out on a great thing because it doesn't fit our preconcieved notions of what we want. I am happily married to someone that I never saw coming. He wouldn't have half of the boxes on my list checked off, but he is the perfect person for me, but I almost missed out on it because I didn't know what I really wanted in a man.

The universe offers us so much, and so much of it we refuse because if doesn't fit some plan that we have constructed for our lives. I'm very glad that I, not lowered, but changed, my expectations in relationships. My relationship is truely a gift, and I almost turned my nose up at it.

Heh, I'm in your boat there, jlw.

As for myself, my mental checklist used to have a lot more boxes than it ended up having when I met my husband. Most of the initial requirements, in hindsight, were in equal parts shallow and overly strict. But whenever I found someone that fit most of them, I ended up discovering other things there that I was less than pleased with, and that never figured in the initial checklist. So the shortlist eventually dwindled down to 4 items: at least as tall as me, has enough of a sense of humor to tolerate mine (I come up w/ very twisted in-jokes or observations on occasion), looks adorable when asleep, and someone I could call my 'partner in crime'(=P). And I found someone who passed with flying colors and more, and had other qualities that I had never envisioned wanting in a soulmate, but couldn't believe I had overlooked the whole time.

Someone else could see it as settling, sure, but I think it's a matter of figuring out that a few things are a lot more important than a lot of other things, like specific physical characteristics, or what they do for a living, or even their choice of reading material... Like being able to live with that someone for years, and still feel as excited about it as the first day you moved in on waking up. Or being able to ask that person "what took me so long to find you?" and mean it every single time you do.

it's a serious conversation, and while i do have strong opinions of my own, i'm having a hard time keeping my obsessive-compulsive self in check. it's 'monogamy,' but 'managomy' makes me chuckle as it seems to imply 'only dating men.'

Re: Other's settling piece

You aren't engaging the fact that sometimes people don't select based on their ego (i.e. she meets my standards and is thus deserving of me) but instead based on little things like mystery, taboo, intrigue and all those shadowy things that make the conquest of a crush so damn addictive.

All that talk about potential is rather disturbing, if not downright arrogant. Obviously selection does happen and the criteria can be arbitrary, but there's a lot of judgement in your valuation of potential suitors. You really think that someone who cheated once should have to wear a scarlet "S" because they "settled" one time?

Something tells me that there may be a lot of people who don't meet your standards who are deserving of a lot more understanding and acceptance than you offer.

JLW is right: it is all about expectations. Negotiating those tricky waters is as much a personal journey as it is a game of compromise with a significant other.

(Jane - sorry for hijacking the thread for this slightly self-referential discussion)

People also cheat for a variety of reasons. The fundamental problem with cheating, in my view, is not that you've wandered from sexual exclusivity with one partner, but that you have *lied* (implicitly, in many cases) about it. You've lied to your partner, possibly to the other person in the liason, and most of all to yourself.

But that doesn't make you a terrible person. If I believed that I'd have to check myself into a convent! It's a mistake, and like many mistakes, you just have to deal with it - fix it, make up for it, break up for it, whatever. Just because you have cheated doesn't always mean that you have "settled" on someone not good enough for you. What's this whole business about "good enough" anyway? I don't like that world view. Everyone is "good enough". I don't see humanity arranged in some kind of vast hierarchy.

I tend to be extremely open-minded about whom I date, and that's led to some relationships which, in retrospect, I "should have known" would not work out, because of our different world views, backgrounds, expectations. But I am an optimist, I guess. And from those relationships that ended, I learned an enormous amount about the world and pther people and myself. My attitude has always been, hey, give it a chance - you never know.

Because you never do.

I hate it when I make stupid mistakes like that. Not like cheating, but like "manogamy." Especially since I know that the root of monogamy is mono. I feel like beating my head against the wall, stupid stupid stupid. Stuff like that drives me crazy when other people do it, so I apologize for my error and hope that it doesn't distract from my point.

AAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH

Jane writes, "I've been the other woman... I didn't really feel guilty... Only the two people involved in the relationship really knew what's going on, and it was up to them to decide if they want to continue or break it off."

I understand her to mean that having a sexual relationship with someone who you know is in a relationship with someone else is acceptable behavior. From the writing it is unclear to me whether she still believes this.

I strongly disagree with the reasoning that a person does not have any duty to the other partner of the person they are sleeping with.

There are three relationships. One between the couple. One between yourself and the cheater. And one between yourself and the person being cheated upon.

While you may not know the person being cheated on personally, I think we all have a general duty to our fellow humans not to assist in deceiving them. Particularly in this emotionally sensitive area. No matter how logical and cold you are, most people have warm and fleshy hearts; easily damaged.

Should it even matter if you know the person cheated upon? that they are your best friend? Most people would find cheating with a friends partner disgusting, back-stabbing behavior. I think it shouldn't matter who the person is. You cannot separate yourself from the harmful cheating behavior. You gain from the cheating, you are aware of the harm to the other person, and you could stop it. Not careing about this other person's welfare is the height of immoral behavrior (And Im not speaking religiously; Kant or J.S. Mill will do).

"What if they never find out?" Someone might ask. Well, 1. this is a gamble that should not be taken; and 2. there is still harm, at minimum, if others know about the situation, their image of the cheated upon person will change.

I'm sorry if I gave you all the impression I have a checklist of must-have qualities in a significant other. I don't have one of those. I haven't found a soul mate, so what would I know to look for? Most of the people I have dated are completely diverse physically and personality-wise. If you will notice from my first post, the informal process I go through in dating has more to do with my emotions than her personal attributes. To bring in the shoe analogy, what are otherwise perfectly good shoes might not fit me too well, or might end up looking stupid on me. No knock on the shoes, but we weren't meant for each other and I won't try to shoehorn my way into them. The infamous "it's not you, it's me" break-up speech is largely accurate albeit imprecise. It should be "it's not you, it's not me, but it's us". A great couple are not necessarily comprised of two individually great people. Which is why I don't judge a women as an individual as much as I judge our compatibility as a couple. Fairness aside, how she racks up in the beauty department, personality department, intelligence department, etc. is largely irrelevant to our success as a couple. How she racks up as a partner is what is important, and she need not necessarily score high in all the aforementioned departments to be a good partner. That is what attracts me. It's the potential for _us_ to be great; for the energy from _our_ relationship to permeate to all aspects of my life, including my individual life.

If one interprets this philosophy to be arrogant, then so be it. I'd rather be arrogant and save myself (and herself) some heartache than to settle for a relationship which has an expiry date from the outset. If I were to strike up a relationship with a woman and not be able to say "I love you" or "you're the best thing that has ever happened to me" without having to cross my fingers, I think that would be a terribly sad thing. I don't lie about such fundamental things to people that are so fundamental to my being. It's surprising how many people do so.

So that's what I mean by settling. If you can't turn to your significant other and say "you're the greatest person to be a part of my life", then you've settled. If you're holding out to say "I love you" to your boyfriend of 3 months for fear of violating some cheesy Rule, you've settled. And IMHO, if you can't commit your whole self to one person, then be truthful with yourself and admit to what you are settling for.

I think I'm a pretty socially liberal guy. I have no qualms with the use of the term "gay marriage". But, I think "open relationship" is the plural form of "relationship" masquerading as a singular form. So treat it that way. If you're going to agree to an open relationship, then be truthful and admit that what you're really doing is not entertaining an "open relationship" as much as you are engaging in multiple relationships. This is not cheating. This is also not an innovative new social construct. These are the types of casual relationships people have traditionally engaged in before they decide to take the leap towards committing themselves to a very special person for a very special relationship.

As for someone wearing a scarlet S, they can take it off when they give me proof they're not a cheater. A start would be if they accepted responsibility for their actions instead of blaming an emotionally-absent partner or making some other excuse. Let's face it. There is no reason to cheat when you can dump a person first. The only reason people do cheat is for the same reason a monkey doesn't let go of one branch while swinging to the next. They want a backup just in case the new branch isn't as viable as they had first thought. To me, that is arrogant. I'd deal with giving such a person a second chance on a case by case basis. But in my case, once bitten, twice shy.

And again, it's not about an individual meeting my standards. It's about my relationships meeting my standards. If more people understood this, we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate. I'll fully accept the label of arrogant asshole if it means the standards for my relationships are such that I want to ensure there is a high-enough two-way medium of attraction, commitment and trust to endure the test of time.

hey Other Guy - just curious, how old are you?

I think I will be committing debate-suicide here as my world-view will no doubt carry less value to some people once I answer. I'm 23.

mark, i must disagree. while i am in accord with you that human hearts sometimes defy logic, and should, one is ultimately not qualified to judge on relationships outside of ourselves, nor say what people should and shouldn't do in their personal lives. the only thing you can do is act in a way which *you* feel is good and justified. that may or may not take into account the feelings of someone you don't know - or know only slightly.

i suppose i can feel that way because i wouldn't feel (and haven't felt) much resentment towards the "other woman". she wasn't in a committed relationship, my boyfriend was. i can't judge her reasons for sleeping with him, because i don't know them. i can only investigate what happened between me and my boyfriend. usually the fact that he cheated is important, not who he did it with.

on the other hand, friendships change everything. if she's a friend of mine, then she's lying to me as much as he is, and that's a different problem altogether.

i don't think i would, now, sleep with someone whom i knew to be committed. beyond morality - which we could discuss but which i'd rather not - it's far too complicated. but mistakes happen, misinterpretations happen. once i slept with a guy who told me he'd broken up with his girlfriend.

then they got back together and - she didn't know me very well but - she hated me forever. and i didn't know how to explain to her that i thought they were totally separate. she obviously had a different interpretation.

*sigh*

maybe i didn't follow the girl code of honor?

not at all, Other Guy!

your age doesn't, of course, invalidate or lessen anything you say. and who knows? you may feel the same way in ten, fifteen, twenty years...

but i'm just thinking of how much *i've* changed my world view from the time i was 23 to now...

but in any case i absolutely agree with you: "And IMHO, if you can't commit your whole self to one person, then be truthful with yourself and admit to what you are settling for."

but i think you're a bit narrow-minded about open relationships. i've known people in extremely committed open relationships - with soul mates, deep in love, all that - and yet they choose to be sexually non-exclusive. that doesn't necessarily have to cast doubt on the level of commitment in the primary relationship. it's very very different from having a bunch of casual relationships.

I just think the heart is mercurial and the mind is a fickle beast. Sorting that out is hard enough as it is, but in the context of a relationship is even harder.

Fundamentally, it's about ebb and flow, bizarre interconnections and challenging differences.

Couples hash out their business in very relative ways -- one person's sexually open relationship is another's spiritally open relationship. It's all about what's important to you.

And even that's subject to change over space and time.

I feel like I'm coming into this conversation late. Jane, I like this update, this is something I've been thinking about lately.

When me and my group of friends (all of whom are married except for myself) get a chance to go out (which, expectedly is not very often seeing as they all are married), one stop is invariably a strip club, and not some prissy strip club, but one where touching almost everywhere is allowed. I don't want to go into the moral ramifications of going to strip club, more the moral ramifications of being married and getting a girl to grind her naked ass into your crotch while you're feeling up her tits.

This doesn't mean much to me, since I'm not married, or even dating. However, what does this mean for my friends? They are all decent guys who want to touch other girls' tits.

Who gets hurt if the women never find out? This is pure objectification, and yes, there is dishonesty involved, but who gets hurt?

I don't necessarily think that cheating is being dishonest to one's self always. Sometimes I think it's the ultimate cynical and pragmatic act. I also agree with you; cheating doesn't make one a terrible person. This is fairly new realization for me, I used to think cheaters were just bad people. Tho I would be devastated if I found out my SO cheated on me, if I never found out, what's the harm?

First a tangent: J.S. Mill is a utilitarian philosopher, whereas Kant is, well, the beginning of a school of thought unto itself (hence the whole Kantian school of thought). The former's body of works deals with the social welfare of individuals as part of a group more than in an interpersonal realm type of way (that's more or less what Kant does, rather). So basically Kant's view on relationships would be much much closer to what myrmyr is saying than Mill's. For Kant, it is morally wrong to assent to a relationship that implies monogamy because you would prove not to mean it by even considering cheating your partner. For Mill, the problem would be of a more practical nature, in that effectively you act for the benefit of the least (1) as opposed to the greatest number of people involved (3 or more, if you consider that the other woman/man is affected, and the person's partner if s/he has one, etc.).

(Sorry about the tangent, I just have a problem with philosophers being lumped together willy-nilly).

As for the comments:

Jane: I agree that it's not the cheating, but the lying that I have more of a problem with. I'm not saying that I'm all for open relationships (I'd accept being in one, but it would hurt) but I am all for someone telling me up front that they're also interested in someone else too, risking my decision to leave, so that if I decided to stay in.the relationship I knew on what basis.

Love is not forever.

Studies have shown that the couples that last do not do so because they've got an iron bond, or because they resign themselves on settling for companionship once love goes away. Couples that stay together do so because they keep falling in love with one another again every few years.

If you accept that, then yes, there is a good possibility that many marriages will eventually fail, or eventually mutate into something else: something without love, or something where the love's not quite the same as it once was, or where the love in it grows out of new differences, or new similarities.

Yet some people always want the same fresh feeling out of love, and there's really nothing wrong I see in wanting that all the time, as long as they are honest and upfront about it to the other person they are involved with.

The other guy: many people cannot genuinely bring themselves to say "I love you" after three months, or six months, and it's not because they have settled for someone they don't love, but because they have a hard time finding the words to express what they feel.

Do you know how inadequate those words really are to some people when they want to express love? They just don't seem enough, or seem to be used so easily that they seem almost casual in tone.

Just a thought.

This is now my most favorite post of yours ever. I'm not sure if I even had a favorite post of yours prior to this, but whatever it was, it has a new home.

You're a consistent reminder that adults can still be cool... growing is such a wonderful thing.

i'm having a real difficult time with JT's comments. if i understand correctly, his argument is 'no one gets hurt if no one finds out, so what's the problem.' am i over-simplifying?

look, if your friends' wives knew about the strip-clubbing-feeling-up stuff, and were okay with it, that would be one thing. but the fact that they feel the need to hide it from their wives is what makes it really hard to take. this implies that the wives are NOT okay with their behaviour, so it must be hidden. so not only are they being deceptive to women they have committed themselves to, but they are also risking the happiness of those women. who's to say they'll never find out?

i'm really not good at this type of conversation. i've been uncomfortable with my boyfriend having very close female friends, which i realize is a little extreme, and it has taken time to get accustomed to the idea that he is not going to cheat. i suppose it comes from past relationships, and my own insecurities and upbringing, but i find myself particularly sensitive to cheating. and in my view, feeling up strippers counts as cheating, or at least as being disrespectful to myself and to women in general - but that's a whole other argument, and one i'll lose in this forum.

anyway. what works for me in my relationship is that even though my guy has a differing view on the importance sex, he has offered and promised to love and respect me enough to keep things where i'm comfortable, and we've both agreed that if we want to be with other people, we talk about it first. and i suppose every relationship needs its own set of boundaries or non-boundaries, but i strongly believe that each person in the relationship should have their say. because i know deception, more than cheating, would be a relationship ender for me.

I just want to clarify my earlier point on open realtionships. I don't people that they are inherrantly Wrong, with a capitol W, but that they put the primary relationship at risk.

I'm not willing to take that risk, but if you and your partner are, then best of luck to you.

Also, the whole "what you don't know won't hurt you" theory is crap. No one has the right to fuck with someone's reality. When you deceive someone in such a way, you are denying them the truth about the relationship they are involved in, which is Wrong. Doesn't it bother you that someone would not want to be in a relationship with you if they knew who you really were and what you were really doing? Doesn't it make the whole relationship phoney?

Wow..this is interesting. I can't believe how this thread and comments hit close to home for me.

I am married and I cheated on my husband. I tried to analyze why I did it. Lost in the moment, the thrill..I'm not sure. It wasn't a one night stand. In fact it was with a co-worker on the other side of the coast. We became friends thru a project and eventually started chatting and getting to know one another. I was going through problems with my marriage and I was asking him for advice. He's been married for 10 years and I've been married for 2 years.

He was having problems of his own. He realized that he doesn't "love" his wife the way she loves him. She was questioning his feelings for her. She didn't feel that deep love from him.
He told me that when he married her he didn't feel that deep love but maybe over time he could grow to love her that way.

Anyway, we became close friends and developed a crush on one another. I felt a deep connection with my co-worker, that we could talk about anything and everything. With my husband, we didn't talk, I didn't feel the connection, he wasn't my soulmate, the passion was gone in our relationship, we weren't physical..even though he wanted to but I just didn't feel it. When we talked, he tried to solve my problems...I needed a listener not a problem solver.

Did I settle for less? I am not sure. When I married him, I didn't settle. He had all the traits I wanted in a partner. He's a great man..generous to his family and friends. I think any girl would be lucky to have a guy like this. I asked myself, why don't I appreciate what I have. How can I cheat on a man like this? If you ask any of my friends, we are the perfect couple, we both have great jobs, nice house, cars, and good friends and family.

Why did I have that affair? I'm not sure. It may have to do with that connection, the feelings, soulmate, or something I was missing in my marriage. Seeking and looking for something that wasn't currently in my marriage?

We were so comfortable with one another...we didn't have to say a word and things were special. I have never been lost in a kiss, a hug, but with this person. I finally realized what I've been missing.

So 6 months later. Where am I now? Well, we ended the affair. He decided that he needed to try with his wife and work things out. Why? For his wife, his children, his family, religion, for himself. He doesn't know when enough is enough but will keep trying. He cares for his wife and loves her in a way...but not the way it should be.

Are we two lost people in this world? Yes, I certainly am. I struggle with this everyday and what to do next. I am trying to find what makes me happy. What I need in a relationship. I was never one to settle. That is why I waited so long to get married. I never thought I would cheat until it happened. Now, I am hurt, sad, depressed, and trying to figure things out.

My husband and I are still together, we went through counsoling but I never told him about the affair. I still don't feel the love...he's well aware of this. But he thinks it has to do with me trying to find myself, not appreciating what I have and taking things for granted.

I'm going to a therapist for myself now, trying to figure out what makes me happy. What I need in a relationship. Finding myself. I thought I knew and had everything. But something is missing in my life. Really confused.

I am embarrassed and ashamed of the affair. I can't look at myself and be happy. I wish I could say it meant nothing to me and it was just sex. But it wasn't..it was so much more. I fell in love with that person.

I need to get over the other person..need to find myself...try to find the love for my husband.

Maybe everyone is right..you lose that excitement, the feeling of being in love, the spark, the butterflies in the tummy and next thing you need to do is work and be committed to the relationship..the marriage.

Sometimes I think I am a hopeless romantic. All those hollywood movies skewed my notion of love, romance...

there's another form of infidelity that hasn't been commented on here: when you're in a sexual relationship with someone you're not committed to, and you suspect them of sleeping with other people (in fact, you almost know it), but you're not sleeping with anyone, and then again you're not *sure* they're sleeping with other people, and so you start playing all of tricks in your own mind, justifying things to yourself.

the power differential of the fact that you don't know what they're doing with other people sexually is just poisoning. i was in this situation once with a guy who was 8 years older (he was 32, i was 24), devastatingly good looking (or maybe he was arrogant-acting enough that he came off as really hot) and intimidated the hell out of me.

he screwed me up good, partially because i never felt pretty enough for him (or he never made me feel good enough to relax and be confident and secure - i hated myself and all my feminist sensibilities for that fact), and i was sure that he was sleeping with other women, because he was the type of guy could get away with it. so then almost every woman i saw on the street who was attractive became a candidate in my mind for someone he "could" be sleeping with, and it became kind of an obsessive thing.

who knows if he was or wasn't?? the point is that not having that type of trust and open communication with a partner is not only not sustainable in a relationship, it leads to the worst form of lying/cheating: the type that you do to yourself and your own self-esteem.

now i'm over him and with the love of my life, who, as annalisa said above, is definitely NOT who i "envisioned" myself with. but, i think you often don't get what you want, you get what you need. i needed someone who would make me laugh, get me to slow down, challenge my mind, be as kind in his soul as i am, and help me to take my life less seriously. and the only way to get to that point, when you're ready for that person who really complements you and brings out your best self, is to have the hard experiences that allow you to change, grow, and grow up.

JLW, I don't think it's reasonable to say that relationships are that heavily based on fidelity, at least on a day to day basis. It's not like any of my friends are in danger of getting a divorce, or get asked by their wives if they've been cheated on daily. I don't think it's fair to call someone a phony if they hide their cheating proclivities if in every other way they are a good man. I've come to accept that men (including myself) want to get off, and that often has nothing to do with the women we're with.

Don't get me wrong, I think about this because I'm a bit confused about the notion of cheating. Cheating is antithetical to everything I've believed in the past, but now... This is one of the sucky things about getting older. Pragmatism and cynicism has taken a fairly deep hold on me. I'd like to call it wisdom, but I'm not sure about that.

It's funny, I'd like to clarify a bit on what I said above. I've talked about this with the fellas (I actually didn't go to this particular strip club, I was with my niece doing ridiculously wholesome family stuff while they were out grabbing as many tits as they could get their hands on. Cognitive dissonance, anyone?), and none of us are really sure what to make of it. One friend in particular chooses not to dwell on it at all, seeing it as simply something he does on the side that has nothing at all to do with family. The others now think they're on a slippery slope. Sure, there's a difference between grabbing a boob and paying someone for a blowjob, but there's not much in between those two.

What's interesting to me is that I see the kind of cheating Plum did as much deeper and sharper than grabbing a stripper's tit or fucking an escort, no offense to Plum. There seems to be more invested in what Plum did than in a money transaction.

uuuggh.

i find this so utterly disheartening.

i actually find it quite disheartening, too, melanie. there are certainly people that i am attracted to, ones who i would be with if i were single, but the fact is that i'm in love with my boyfriend and i'm with him. and my commitment to him is one that i want to keep. i feel like cheating on a significant other is one of the most selfish and hurtful things in the world.

plum,

If it's spring, pack a picnic and take your husband to a park. Enjoy the scenery, the quiet, the opportunity. It sounds like you two need to reinvent your relationship. So you can start by coming up with some creative dating ideas.

Far too many relationships devolve into mall expeditions, tag-team grocery shopping sessions and other exercises in spending time with someone without enjoying their presence. If this sounds like the extent of the time you spend with your husband, there still is hope for your marriage. But you need lots of fertile opportunity for healthy aspects of your relationship to grow.

Your affair got off the ground for this very reason. There was a fertile opportunity. Statistically speaking, people most often cheat with their co-workers. They spend a lot of time with them. They have a lot of opportunity to enjoy their presence. But many people today are lucky to enjoy their wife/husband for a few hours between arriving home from work and going to bed! Not only is that a lack of time for someone of such importance in your life. But what a shitty block of time too. You've probably just driven home through traffic and are now rushing to get some semblance of dinner on the table. Your brain is now in the process of shutting down having done its duty at work. And so you're lucky to put a total of 10 minutes of meaningful conversation into those few hours you spend "together".

So with the odds seemingly stacked against you, what can you do to try to spend more quality time with your husband? Can you meet him for lunch one day a week on a weekday? If you both drive to work in different cars, maybe you will drive to work together and listen to some talk radio? Rant about Bush or Kerry together. You can join a gym together for after work. It will work up those endorphins and make you feel better. You can stop grocery shopping in bulk on the weekends, and instead buy fresh ingredients for weeknight dinners that you two will prepare together. In fact, reserve the weekends for rest. If organized religion ever did one thing right, it was declaring one day of the week a day of rest. And yet, precious few people obey such a wonderfully beneficial rule-of-thumb. Don't spend the weekend doing household chores; you're going to do the laundry, cleaning, lawn mowing and other routine tasks during the week. The weekend will be for you two to enjoy yourselves. Visit parks, libraries, downtown cafés and quaint restaurants on the weekend. Pick up a board game, start a garden, bake together, buy two bicycles and cycle, or hold hands and just walk. Join Habitat for Humanity or some other charity. Those old folks in the retirement homes have some great tales to tell.

Does this sound too ideal without any ground in reality? I bet it does. But it doesn't have to be. It's definitely do-able. I know married people that do this now. Your decision of course, is to commit the effort necessary to start doing these things or not to. But if you think the problem is really your husband, then maybe none of this will help. May I ask you a question? If the man you had an affair with was dropped into your life right now, and you two lived the way you and your husband currently do, would you be any happier? If the answer is no, then maybe you need a lifestyle change and not a change of loved ones.

All the best and keep your head up! I hope you two are able to sort things out.

JT,

Where might I be able to find this strip club of yours? Sounds like fun.

I guess I'm lucky in that I'm happily married and still in love with my husband. We've only been married a couple of months, but living together 5 years, and it's never really occurred to me to cheat on him.

If I was unhappy, who knows? I still don't think it's the right thing to do, but I can understand why people do it. One thing I'd like to point out though it that in Plum's situation, the affair didn't make her happy. In fact, from what I could tell, it just made things worse. She's still unhappy in her marriage, but now she also has to deal with the loss of another relationship.

It's all very sad. Not just Plum's situation, but the whole conversation in general. I believe in marriage and committment. I believe that they work, but I acknowladge that it is a sacrifice.

My husband would never impose any retrictions on me or who I am, but it's a self regulating type of thing. He trusts me to make good decisions for our relationship and when your married, you have to put the relationship above your individuality. It's harsh to say in these times when so much emphasis is put on individuality and independence.

You have to know that you're willing to make this sacrifice before you get married.

Annalisa: I put "Kant or J.S. Mill" togther (or did i?) because they are so different. Making the point that my arguement has a foundation under widely divergent views; views separate from religious moral traditions. And as for how Mill would look at it, he is concerned with maximum welfare for society. It goes beyond the three people involved. If it is acceptable for people to cheat on people, and be involved with cheaters, there are many others that are harmed. Everyone in a monogomous relationship now understands there are people willing to lure their loved one away, and there will be no social stigma attached to the activity. Increased jealously and suspicion might infect many relationships when (male and female) hussys are on the loose. Imagine that joe has a girlfriend and jane is not currently in the heat of love, and joe wanted to hang out with jane. I think joe's girlfiend might be a little uncomfortable with it, unsure whether jane will respect her relationship/feelings. Even if jane has no interest in joe.

Jane, writes "one is ultimately not qualified to judge on relationships outside of ourselves, nor say what people should and shouldn't do in their personal lives."
What are you qualified to judge? Do you approve of domestic violence laws? They are a very strong judgement of relationships outside ours. Do you approve of legislation that makes housing discrimination based on race illegal? We constantly judge relationships outside of our own. I can judge a persons actions who harm me, or anyone else. While the blame may lay mostly in my partner, don't tell me one can't judge. And what about your judgement that i am not qualified to judge? Its ok to meta-judge? |)

"i can't judge [the "other woman's"] reasons for sleeping with him, because i don't know them." While this addresses the situation of someone cheating on you, it does not address your actions.

"i suppose i can feel that way because i wouldn't feel (and haven't felt) much resentment towards the "other woman"." I think this is a common, but flawed arguement. Just because you would not mind someone else doing something, doesn't give you license to behave that way. Just because you wouldn't mind neighbors who blast music at 4am does not mean your neighbor should have to put up with you doing the same. Just because you don't mind trash in the street doesn't give you license to dump yours there. Relationship rules are like any other social norm, we just don't legislate it.

"once i slept with a guy who told me he'd broken up with his girlfriend." I never addressed unknowingly cheating, which I would think be an obviously different (and blameless) situation.

"maybe i didn't follow the girl code of honor?"
My view has nothing to do with you being a boy or girl. And while you may rightly mock social norms, i will point out they play an important part in making our society function, increasing trust and fulfillment of expectations.

the other guy,

I agree that we need a lifestlye change. There is no doubt about it. We are so caught up in everyday things. Work, family, friends, etc.
The thing is, I have tried. I've tried to learn events that my husband enjoys. Sports, sports, sports.. I use to hate ESPN, but now I watch it daily..read the sports section so we can chat about it. Why, because I know my husband enjoy and lives for sports. I started playing more sports so both of us could spend time together.

For me, things I enjoy, he doesn't like...hiking, camping, reading, discussing current events,etc. He doesn't even try...he says no..I've tried before and I don't like it. So what can I do?

I want this marriage to work or else I would have been gone a long time ago. I don't nag him. I don't tell him to clean the house, mow the lawn..whatever. I do things on my own so I don't bother him.

To make a long story short, we have alot of problems in our marriage. No doubt about that. Does he recognize that? I am not sure. We talk about it. But he still thinks, she's the one with the problems. She doesn't know what she wants, she doesn't appreciate what we have...

We did talk alot about these issues before the affair and we didn't get anywhere. I told him we should spend more quality time and he said we aren't? I asked him to spend less time playing sports and he told me..you want me to get fat and lazy and hinder my health..

Now I'm asking myself, is this as good as it gets? Or is there more? I don't know. Marriage is about commitment...

I believe that what most men believe is that they are the provider, the one to bring home the bacon in a marriage and they are still stuck in that mode. But in today's world, woman have grown and diversified, we work, have children, support, and take care of the family. In fact, I make more money than my husband. So I don't care about the financial aspects. What I want from a relationship is someone to communicate with on a deeper level, someone that challenges my mind, stimulates me. I don't need a provider. I want us to grow as a couple and have a relationship.

What I did was wrong...I don't blame anyone. I should have known better. The past is in the past and now I have to live with it. I never thought I would ever cheat.

What I want in a relationship is different in what he expects. Did I know this before we got married, no... we have some things in common, raising a family, how we take care of our family...etc Can we work to save our marriage? I don't know. All I know is that I have to try. How can I change a person. Then again..I shouldn't change anyone. I married him knowing certain aspects of this character. So now, what do I do? Live with it and be miserable? Do I expect too much? Do I just live with it? Many others do so why can't I?

On this Saturday afternoon, what are we doing?
I'm at home working and he's out with the boys playing ball...

Strokes;

The strip club was called 'The Wagon Wheel', but recently changed to 'The Players Club'.

http://www.playersclubinbaltimore.com

It's in Baltimore, MD.

ok, jee posted about open marriage a while ago on her blog, and i've been thinking about it on and off since.

i would imagine that an open marriage would be fine between two people who are secure enough in themselves and their feelings for one another that they have no fear of being abandoned as the result of their partner's or their own dalliances. who are both evolving as individuals and together, but are not threatened by the idea of waking up one day alone. not many people accept the stark reality that most people who are "committed" put up with sub-par relationships out of terror of being alone, being unable to find better, or for the kids, or for some reason other than that they truly want to be with the person.
commitment, as i see it being used here, is in a sense a regulation of behavior casting well into the future....no matter what, i will always stay with you. true committment, to me, isn't holding some one to an oath they made, or a signed statement held on file, or an expectaion for the future based on past performance. it's staying with someone because you honestly and truly want to, and because they feel the same.
i haven't been in an open relationship, i've never cheated, and never (to my knowledge) been cuckolded (i started this post really only for the opportunity to use this old and fabled term of derision!!). but if my significant other ever came to me and said....listen, i want to sleep with that guy/girl, i would like to hope that i am enlightened enough to willingly give my blessing. i am with you, jane, on the point that the best sex i've had is within a long-term relationship, and that otherwise it is less fulfilling, but if the person i am with needs to go find that out herself, me standing in the way is just going to kill the relationship. if it's not already over, and i am late to come to that understanding. and i would like to think that in an ideal relationship i would be given the same freedom. because i probably wouldn't exercise that freedom. it's usually only when people are told they may not do something that they REALLY want to do it.

don't know what this adds to the thread, if anything could possibly be added at this juncture. but your post was inspirationally thoughtful.....and thought inspiring.

This is a very interesting conversation.

From my own experiences, cheating is when you give something to someone else that you should be giving to your partner. For example - my husband cheated on me and that lead to the end of the marriage. But for me the cheating was emotional as well as physical. Even before he slept with the other girl he was calling her all the time and basically, giving a part of himself to her that he should have been giving to me. So, the emotional cheating happened long before the physical cheating.

I have a lot of male friends so it's not that I would ever have expected him not to also have female friends. But, this was something different, where all the quality time and emotional sharing that should have gone to me went instead to her.

I guess for each person and relationship, there are different expectations of what should be exclusive between the two people. I would include sex in that catagory. But I can see how some people wouldn't. Thereby, being able to have open relationships without a breakdown of the primary relationship.

From what I've observed in the past though, many people who think they would be open to an open relationship are not really. They expect the other person to be understanding but are very jealous when the shoe is on the other foot.

I guess, then I would have to agree that it is important to know what you want in a relationship - in more than just the superficial ways. I also think that it is important to know who you are and what you want from yourself and your life. I think often people find that their spouses aren't giving them what they want because they themselves didn't know what they wanted/needed in the first place. I guess I'm saying that it is also important to know who you are so you can find someone who accepts you the way you are and for the person you may become.

Jane, your musing disappoints.

"Fucking by any other name..." could have been the title for your entry, with all the promise of its allusions. You chose, instead, a much easier way out---an avenue of axiomatic logic worn down by the intellectual clichés of those who dared to teeter on the edge, only to back away. You chose, instead, Britney over Madonna, Neo-Tokyo over Tokyo, Nutrasweet over Saccharine.

Q: What is the difference between animal mind and intellectual mind?
A: Semantics.

But “love is natural and real,” Morrissey once crooned. It can be pure, it can even be True, but let us not pervert it with obligation and insecurity.

Are you getting older, my dear? Does this mortal coil recoil because your life now can be marked by decades? Please tell me that Rock is not dead. Do not go gentle into that good night, Jane.

- Your Alibi

Jane,

I just re-read the original post after not reading it for a while. I really like the last paragraph - about believing in yourself and your partner.

JT- It's not the realtionships are heavily based on fidelity, but that they are based on honesty. I couldn't case less if my husbad goes to a strip club. I'd go with him if he asked, but if he didn't, that's fine too. What I would have a problem with is if he lied to me about it.

That was my whole point- that by having an affair, you are building a false realtionship which is not fair to the other person invloved. Imagine believing that you're happily married and then finding out that the perosn you trusted the most has been lying to you about what type of person they are and how they feel about the relationship. It's wrong.

Also, speaking from personal experience, it's humiliating. Especially, when other people know about the affair and you don't. Everyone thinks you're a fool and a sucker and then if you decide to stay together, everyone thinks that you're stupid.

Plum- I feel for you. I can't imagine how horrible it would be to be in an unhappy marriage. I don't know what I would do in your position, but I think you should consider telling your husband about the affair. It nothing else, it will make him realize how unhappy you are. Also, I think you owe it to him to tell him the truth. How can you expect to have a loving caring relationship with someon when he doesn't even know the truth about who you are? While you may be able to find some comfortable level in your realtionship at some point, you will never be able to have a relationship where you are loved for who you are, because you are not giving him the opportunity to know you.

If he leaves you, then that's on him, and your free from the marriage. Just something to think about.

I agree about the rest of the advice you gave Plum, but I somewhat disagree with the "you're not giving him a chance to know who you are" part. She told him she wanted to do specific things, things she loves that he might not necessarily love, and he says "No I don't like doing that stuff". That's handing someone a chance to get to know all about you right there, and he didn't take it.

On the other hand, if I am to take her words at face value, she's made plenty of attempts to get involved in his life and to check out what he *he* likes, even though she has not necessarily gotten anything out of it.

There is a disparity in their willingness to not take the person for granted, that's for sure. So yeah, she should let her husband know that he *cannot* do that, and if that means telling him about the affair to give him a wake up call, and risk hurting him and damaging the relationship to where it can't be repaired, so be it. When one or both partners take each other for granted, the relationship becomes a shell of its former self anyway.

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